Colors of InfoSec Podcast

Episode 5- The State of the Union (The Colors of InfoSec Podcast Recap)

October 15, 2020 Asif Ahmad & Christina Morillo Season 1 Episode 5
Colors of InfoSec Podcast
Episode 5- The State of the Union (The Colors of InfoSec Podcast Recap)
Show Notes Transcript

Episode 5- The State of the Union (The Colors of InfoSec Podcast Recap)

In this recap episode, Asif and Christina talk about recent news, their goals for starting this podcast, a recap of episodes and discussions, how they feel the podcast is going, and the future (yes! to more infosec topics).

Resources

  1. Asif - What is a tabletop exercise? https://www.cisa.gov/publication/cisa-tabletop-exercise-package
  2. Christina's - blog (recent news) https://www.christinamorillo.com/blog/goodbye-microsoft
  3. 97 Things for InfoSec Professionals....book - Learn more about contributing here
  4. Episode 1 - Introducing the Colors of InfoSec Podcast
  5. All Episodes - ColorsofInfoSec.com
  6. Buzzsprout YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/buzzsprout
  7. Interested in being a guest? Email us at info@colorsofinfosec.com


Follow us on Twitter


Music

  • Track: Too much ice
  • Artist: Young Kartz via freemusicarchive.org



Speaker 1:

Welcome to the colors of InfoSec podcast, a podcast and mystifying, what it means to navigate a career in information security and technology as people of color. I'm your host Arthur mod , and I am Christina Marino , and we're here to give you an all access pass into tech and Infosec's past present and future.

Speaker 2:

All right . So we're here, we're back. Welcome to another episode of the colors of InfoSec podcast . We're going to mix it up a little bit. So let's start off by talking about our weeks . How has the past week treated you? Well,

Speaker 1:

It was pretty good. It's been busy. I've been doing a lot of stuff , uh , on the Workfront . I'm , uh , I did a tabletop exercise last week, which is pretty interesting. That's when we kind of simulate , um , like an incident or simulate a situation that could potentially happen within the organization. So I did, I did one , um, which is good. I could probably elaborate more on it on a later podcast. So you guys tune in for that? Um, I've also been not putting together , uh, doing a lot of incident management and forensic stuff as well. So I'm just, just been doing that, working on that cranking away on that. Uh , that's been my week. It's been very interesting and I'm also looking at other potential certifications that I might be taking as well. So that's been my, and for my team. So that's been my week in a nutshell.

Speaker 2:

Nice. So very eventful, I guess. Oh yeah . So my week was really eventful. Um , probably since the last time we had a , we dropped an episode, I actually quit my job. Um, I know it sounds dramatic, but it's not as dramatic as that. So I resigned from my position. Um, many, many folks know that I have been at Microsoft for almost four years now. Um, you know, love the company, love what they're doing, the way, the direction they're headed in. But for me personally, it was time to go. So, you know, taking a little bit of RNR in between, and then I am super excited to start a new role at a company that I announced very soon. Uh , for now we'll keep that, we'll keep that under wraps , um, outside of that. So just kind of like winding down, right? Like making sure that I, you know, I help with a smooth transition. Uh , then I have a lot of other personal as well. I recently tweeted about a book that I am writing, editing and curating with O'Reilly so your girl got like kind of book deal here, you know what I'm saying? So , um , you know, for the culture , uh, so that's, that's really cool. I'm really excited about that. And then I'm also editing a couple of other books , um, through that publisher as well, which I'm really excited about because I just feel like I'm learning so much. Right. And , um, it's an area that I really wanted to get into. So I'll definitely share a link to that in the show notes, but yeah, that's, my week has been super busy and of course, I don't know if people know this, but , um, you know, I have children, so I am a chronic juggler and , um , you know, so children school from home work from home, everything from home transitioning to a new role mindset shift. Um, so it's really been, it's really been a packed couple of weeks for me, to be honest with you, which is why my voice keeps fading in a lot of these episodes, but alas , we are here. So I know we , we , we spoke about this early on. We really wanted some , I keep it real with everyone this week, especially we wanted to talk about like, you know, just give a recap, you know , of the colors of InfoSec podcasts and how it's going, you know, our goal. Um, what are the episodes we, you know, we've kind of , uh , we've shipped thus far. That's, let's talk about that. Like what let's talk about, let's just start from the beginning, right? Like what was our goal of starting this podcast? Why don't we, why don't we do this? Cause it's a lot of work. So why

Speaker 1:

It is, it is a lot of work. And , uh, I feel the main reason our, why was that we wanted to have a platform and give, you know, peop people who wanted to come into the industry and people who are in the industry. We wanted to give a voice to everyone. And we also wanted to forward the culture of information security because when we were younger and we came into the industry, there really wasn't a platform. There really weren't a lot of voices out there trying to, to give us some type of guidance, giving us some type of insight on a lot of topics. Um , some of the topics that we've covered already in some of the topics that we're , we're planning on covering in the future. But I think for me, that was my why , uh , what about you, Christina? What was, what was your life ?

Speaker 2:

I agree. I agree. I mean, I think plus one to everything you said , um, in addition to that, I think, I feel like it's , um, it's also shifting a little bit for me because at first I said, well, it's a great way to, to your point to kind of mentor at scale, right? Um, as much as I'd like to be available and have one on ones with everyone in the world, that's just not sustainable and it's kind of difficult to do so. So I figured, well, this is a really great way for us to share our insight and our learnings with everyone else. Right. Folks that like you said, are interested in , in getting into the space or have been in the space and are looking for clarity or redirection and stuff like that. I think as of late also I realized that it's another opportunity to show that there isn't one way to skin a cat, right there , there are multiple ways to kind of be long or be in this industry. You don't have to do it the way that everybody else is doing, right. You don't have to, you know , speak at every conference. You don't have to get every certification in the book. Like you don't have to write , there is no manual, there is no right or wrong way. There are multiple. So I feel for me that that's another way for us to kind of scale that message, that there's more than one way to , to be here. And there's, there are multiple ways to be successful in this space. Um , you don't have to work for a very well known company either, right? You can work for a company that no one's ever heard of and , uh, be gaining massive skills and increase, you know, improving your skillset and make a lot of money and be successful. Right. So I think like really looking at redefining what it means to exist in this industry, but also what it means to be successful in this space and in tech.

Speaker 1:

Oh , no, definitely. I , uh , I totally, I totally agree. I feel like, I feel like a lot of times, you know, depending on who you're speaking to or who who's out there, who's blogging or who's, you know, posting on, on one of these sites or in terms of career, they always have some type of insight, go go the DFI or out , or go go the management route or go get this certification. So I think one thing that we love to talk about on this spot is , is being unconventional. And I think both of us kind of exemplify that in our own way. And that's that kind of, I love the fact that we constantly say that and we want those out there who feel like, listen, maybe this isn't the route for me, or that isn't the reference that you can like Christina alluded to beautifully earlier, that you can carve out your own way because that's kind of what we've done. We've literally carved out our own ways and are trying our best to move what we're doing and our feelings and our thoughts and our vision. We're trying to bring it to reality. And that's one thing I'm thankful for this podcast is that I think that it's , it's, it's taught me that it's , it's kind of taught me how to, how to be more of a visionary. I've always been one, but , um, you know, I read somewhere the other day that a V a vision without action is just a dream and that action without a vision is a nightmare. So I think one thing that I love working with you and we know us brainstorming and spitballing and doing what we do , um, it's just, it's just, it's for me, it's been, it's been transformative and , uh, I think I would just want , I just enjoy it. And it's something that I, I want to keep doing to be quite honest with you. Yeah .

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I mean, and you know, I think that all of that really encapsulates why , um , we continue to do this despite our busy schedules and despite our, our lives respectively, right. We both have a lot going on, but we, we, we're passionate about this. Like, and it's no fluff, right? Like, we are literally passionate about this because , um, and let's keep it a hundred percent real. It's 9:22 PM and we are recording this. Right. Which means that we, we literally stay up late to make sure that we have the correct content that we record. And after we record, we edit the podcast ourselves, we upload it and we make sure that everything is set up and ready to be, you know, to kind of ship right in tech talk. Right. And so , um, we, we really take pride in that. And as much as, you know, it's a lot of work, we, we , um, we want it to be hands on. Right. So , um, and just to give a little bit of background, and I really, really want to talk about like a recap of some of the episodes we've , we've , uh, we've shipped to thus far to give a little bit of background acive , uh , reached out to me like over the summer, and we were talking about potentially doing this and what this would look like and how to shape this. Right. And how to launch. And we both did not have experienced , like launching a podcast. Right. So we started with kind of doing some research and doing our due diligence and looking at blogs and, you know, shout out to the bus sprout blog, because they have so much good information, so many great resources , um , and YouTube videos and all that stuff. And so we did a lot of research and we, we , uh, we set up this like massive Trello board because I love Trello. And now I think asset's loves channel too , by the way, we're not being sponsored . Like we're not being sponsored by Trello or by most probably we just genuinely love the product. So like, and we've been using it, using them. So that's why we're giving a shout out. But , uh, this massive travel aboard just to get our process down pack . And it's actually what we still use today , uh , you know, to kind of like list our episodes and all that. So we, you know, we , we, we had to start with like, brainstorming that the title of the podcast brainstorming and the artwork , um, and kind of doing everything, building everything from the ground up. So to recap, we've had four episodes, right. As of, do you want to tell everybody, like, just kind of give the TLDR of one through four?

Speaker 1:

Sure, sure. I can do that. Um , in my opinion, I thought the episodes that we, and the structure in which we did it, I loved it. Um , I liked the first one I thought, well, I'm biased and I don't think I'm biased per se . I try to keep an open mind, but

Speaker 2:

That's right .

Speaker 1:

One was a , was a good introduction. I thought that it, it kind of encapsulated what we were trying to do. It encapsulate who we were. Um , our time in the industry, it kind of gave us , um, kind of the way we work together too . I think it gave us , uh , gave everyone, our listeners out there, like an idea of how we work together. Um, which to be completely honest with you. I think people don't understand that what you hear on this podcast is how we talk to each other all the time. It's, it's not, it's not, it's rarely edited a lot of the things that we talk about. We talk about this stuff, we eat, breathe, and sleep this stuff like there's times where, you know, I'll message Christine at an odd time. And I wouldn't think that she's up and she'll respond right away and we're always in touch with each other. We're always talking. And I think the first episode kind of highlighted that kind of highlighted just a natural flow that we have the natural, you know, respect we have for each other's path. Um, the fact that we've known each other in the way we met each other. So I thought it gave a good, it gave the audience a good idea of kind of who we are, where we're coming from and what we're trying to do. What , what do you think?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I thought it was a good setup to kind of the rest , um, the rest of the episodes , uh , and gave them give some good background. Um, and then, you know, we moved into the , uh , topic that we all love to talk about, right. Just kind of like the InfoSec pop pipeline. And we titled that episode, the cognitive chaos of the InfoSec pipeline, because we all know that entry level roles don't exist , uh, hiring managers and , um, right . The , the , the weirdest, or maybe HR writes the weirdest job spec respects. Right. And I make no sense. Um, and that exclude a lot of folks. So I think that that episode was, was dope because it , it really , um, we kind of, we kind of talked about that breakdown and the disconnect there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. It encapsulated kind of a lot of the things, I feel that a lot of people in this industry are feeling, but they don't know how to express it and they don't know how to kind of voice their frustration. However, what I, what I am encouraged by is that I see not a lot of people on the social platforms. They responded very well to this, to this episode, I got a lot of positive feedback on it. They were like, man, the fact that you guys are, are willing, you know, even though you guys have been in the industry for so long, both of you that you're willing to remember us newbies that are coming in or new personnel that want to want to become, you know, ethical hackers that want to become, you know, malware, you know, sandbox , uh, engineers and all these, all these new people to the field. They were, they were very happy. They felt like they had a voice on the podcast. So I got some good feedback on that episode. And it was , it was, it made me feel good. It made me feel good because, you know, you want people who are coming into the field to really, to really kind of get an understanding of what, not only what they're getting themselves into, but also that there's, that there's, there's people out there you can reach out to. And I think, and I think we talked about that and I , and it's funny that we're talking about people you can reach out to because, you know, as a segue to episode three, that's exactly. Well , it doesn't mean shit versus sponsorship. And , um, it's funny about, about episode three, right? Um, because my entire career I'll be very Frank and blunt. I didn't even know about sponsorship Bobby . I didn't even know about it. I always thought like, you know, mentor, mentor, because, you know, coming from a military background that came from, like I said, I'm the first person in my family to graduate college.

Speaker 2:

It really wasn't a lot of ,

Speaker 1:

A lot of mentorship going on. It was more or less awesome . Kind of you feel, you feel your way through , um, that's how I operated my whole career, but , uh, this, this, I took this episode , uh, not only did I, you know , see a lot, but I also learned a lot too , uh , not only from, from, you know, from talking about it, but from the research that we do prior to our episodes. What were your thoughts on that one? On episode three?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. No, I mean, I , it was interesting to discover that you were like, we were similar in that regard that like, I mean, I never had sponsorship, you know, I've never had sponsorship throughout my career. Um, and just to recap, like, right , like a mentor obviously advises the mentee, it's more of an advisory role and the sponsor advocates for you. Right. And give you access to their network. Um , and I feel like I haven't , I've never had formal sponsored sponsorship, but it seems like even, I know we, we both spoke about this where a lot of , uh, people of color specifically like black folks and other folks of color , um, have been in the same boat. Right. A lot of times we are over mentored under sponsored. Right. So it becomes very difficult to move into those like sea level, sea level opportunities or, or , um, roles because of that. So, yeah. I mean, I so far I'm really loving Mike all our episodes. I think that they , uh, the setup is like dope. I think that we're kind of, you know, we're leading into like, we're , we're crawling, we're not running, right. Like where we're going at a, at a great steady pace. I was really digging the last episode too . I mean, I think we both , uh, we both went back and watched the social dilemma and did our research and being that we, you know , we're on social. And , um, I know I've been on social for years and I'm always like, I want to quit this. And then I'm like, I can't do it. Uh , it was really great to kind of understand why, and just all the psychology and, and kind of gimmicks that go into , um, the addiction piece. Right. So, and then just like what the ethical responsibility in tech , um , is and should be, and , um, really great documentary. And , uh, I thought we recapped it really well. I mean, not specifically, like not the documentary specifically, but I think we covered pieces of that. And then we covered, you know, the ethical responsibility in tech, which is a conversation that , um, that doesn't come up as much. At least I don't hear about it as much.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . Same other , the thing that I enjoyed about that is that even though they're , they're different aspects of ethical, one of the, one of the parts that I believe we didn't cover in a pod, but we , and you talk about it a lot is the mental health aspect of social media, right. And the mental health aspect of just tech in general, like what, it's, what it's doing. And we didn't get into that because I feel like we want to touch on that on , in the later in a later date. And , um, and we could probably have guests or whatever the case may be for that. But I just, I just was fascinated by just that piece, that the documentary, it, it, it , it touched on it and we spoke about it, but that's what it was, was a lasting impression I took away from, from it all, you know, just like, you know, we have the youth that are coming up, you know, we both have, you know , young children, like, like we've, we've spoken about before and that the effect that it can potentially have on not only their, the way they feel as if the world, you know, the world views them, but also it can affect their ability to take risks and things of that. So I was blown away by that piece. And I think out of all of the research that we done, we did for that episode, including, you know, watching the documentary, I felt like that was, that was the takeaway that I had. Like, I walked away from that, like, I was kinda like, wow, this is, this is deep. And this is big

Speaker 2:

For me to go and watch that again, and then listen to our episode.

Speaker 1:

So we we've , uh, we've kind of talked about, you know, where we were, how we got here. And , uh , we kind of gave a recap of, of the, the, the first four episodes. Right. So , um, so far, in your opinion, how would you sum up, like your thoughts on just podcasting in general, starting it, the work that goes into it and everything else that we do usually on a weekly basis, what was your kind of thought coming into it and that we've actually done it and put some episodes out there and, and we've kind of , kind of getting more and more of a better feel of, of it. What , what are your, what are some thoughts that did you have on just podcasting and this podcast in general?

Speaker 2:

No, I mean, I, look, I think it's something that's chill , you know, it's people make it sound so easy. Um, there's definitely like a method to all the madness and it really depends on where you want to take it, right? Like if it's something that you want to do on a whim, cause everybody else is doing it, then you're probably not gonna put maybe as much effort or it's going to be kind of like a slow burn. Right. I think for us, we were really, we were really into doing it for the long haul. Right. And like doing it well. Um, I mean, I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm like, I'm typing and I'm like a perfectionist. And so I think that we, we, I'm excited, I'm excited. Right. Like I think it's , it's hard work and it's, it's a process, right? Like it's the research and the recording and the outlining and the recording. And , and then the, like, you know, we've sometimes scrapped episode ideas, like on the spot, because we didn't feel that we were, that we would put our all into, into the discussion. Right. At the end of the day, I think we both continue to remember the purpose and the why. Right. And , and I think it's been, it's been, it's been like my fuel to keep going, even when I'm exhausted. But another thing is that I was really excited about learning how to edit a podcast and like use garage band and all these tools. I know that sounds really dorky, but I'm a dork. Um, and so like just learning that process and like just learning this new skill, I'm really digging it. You know what I mean? Like, my family is making fun of me. They're like, Oh yeah. DJ Christina , DJ, DJ CNQ. I'm okay with that though. Cause I , I like it and just kind of learning and growing, like, you know, learning about the mix and equipment and how we can level up and, you know, using other podcasts as, or other podcasts as like inspiration, right. As you know, like their journey. Right. And how they've, you know, how they started from the bottom and other here. Right. And I'm not to copy or to, you know , mirror what they're doing, but just, you know, using that as , as , as fire, as inspiration to fuel like our delivery and how we, we look at this, but I really love that we're staying true to who we are and not kind of bending on that , um, you know, 10 toes down, like my man nip would say. Um, and you know, and so like, I'm excited about it. I'm so excited about the possibilities and I'm excited about where we can really take this. I'm excited about our adult perspective. I think that like, it's cool that I know how to edit it . I think eventually we'll need a producer though, because like, you know, life is real, but , um, I love that we're really hands on , uh , because that's, that's one of the things that I'm always like, I'm always very adamant about. Right. I think even, even in , in, in technology and in leadership, like if you haven't done the work, I'm sorry, but you can't come and tell me what to do. Right. Like there's a level, a different level of respect. Right. If P you know, if you move into a role, you could talk about these things when you've done the work when you've put in the time. Right. So I'm very adamant about that. So, so yeah, so far so good. I'm , I'm digging it. Yeah ,

Speaker 1:

Same here. And , uh , one thing that I I've, you know, like you referenced know using, you know , other podcasters as inspiration and things of that nature, and I totally agree. I think that community is something that I really did not realize how supportive they were. That was something that I w I was not expecting. I was not expecting the love. I was not expecting the support. And I was not expecting to have so many people want to see us do well. You know, that that support caught me off guard. I'll be very, so shout out to the podcast community, especially the InfoSec podcast community as well. You guys are amazing guys and gals are amazing and keep putting out your content. Cause I'm , I'm a , I'm a fan of a lot of, a lot of new, a lot of new friends that we've made. Um, another thing that I, that you're going to notice on our pod that we, we value is number one. We've we love being unconventional. And like Christina said, we wanted to be hands on. We wanted to like, you know, review our own mix and get into our own production. And then even the music down to the music, down to the beats, like, we're both, we're both like, we're both hip hop heads. You know, we're both like, we have a lot in common that we, that I'm finding out more and more as we, as I go down this road , Christina , like we have similar musical playlist , which that's crazy, but that's , that's , that's just synergy, you know, but like, like you were saying the unconventional aspect, but the main thing, and a lot of the times why we scrapped episodes is not because of lack of research or lack of a lack of love for the episode is that we want to make sure that our take is authentic. It's who we are, not what, you know, cause there's some , some things that we've done, like some episodes that we've, that we've scrapped where you could , if you look at the writeups for some of them, they could, they could be white papers out there. You know, we , we, we, we we've done that. We've done , we do that type of research and we take it that we take our craft that seriously. But a lot of the times, it's not just the research. We want to deliver it in our most authentic voice. That's something that we take extremely seriously. That's something that we value. We value that authenticity in others as well. And we love speaking, speaking our truth and speaking from our soul. I think that's something that we hope carries over. And if it , and that's something that we value and when we do have guests and that's something that we were looking forward to when we do bring our guests on that's something you'll probably notice is that we want them to bring their own individuality. We want them to bring their own , um, bring their own authenticity and to bring their, their own specific particular thing that makes them special. That makes them unique because for us, in order to move this tech culture and, and to move this InfoSec culture forward, the only way you can actually do it in our opinion is definitely to be authentic. And Christina, you know, she exemplifies that and , uh , I am, I do the same. And that's one of the reasons why I think we connect so well is that we have our own flavor, but we know how to, we could also ride the wave at the same time. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah . I mean, we're definitely not a scripted podcast. I will share just for the sake of transparency. Now we don't write scripts for our podcast . So we don't, we're not reading anything. What we do is that, you know, to prepare for an episode, we do the research and then we create a high level outline. Right. That basically is just like, you know , um, bullets, right? So like 0.1 through three, right. And maybe takeaways , uh , because we really want, want to make sure that we bring value. You know, we know that , uh, we're grateful that you're listening to this episode today and that you've listened to our other episodes, but we really want to make sure that the content is valuable to you. Um , and that it makes you feel good. Right. So we really , uh, we really try to get organized like that asset . Doesn't always like , but, you know, I feel like as a boy , I think it's important because I think that people tend to ramble. And like, I've always said like, yo , we can't, but we can't ramble all the time. So just for the sake of transparency, I mean, so like we talked about the past, right. We've talked about the past and we, we, we , um, our , one of our taglines is like, you know, talking about the past, present and future , um, what do we see as the future? Like where do we want to go with this? Right. Like as far as topics and you did touch on guests, like, what do you see?

Speaker 1:

I think I see, I see I'm excited, man. You just, you just got me, got the amped up. I'm high now know what's coming for the future is bright. That's all I want to say, like the, the ideas that we have cooking right now, like me and me and see we've been in the lab, you know, we , we spend a lot of time, you know , talking and what we have cooked up for the future. We're going to get, we're going to get technical with you guys. You know , uh , both of us love the technical side of this, you know, we've talked more about, you know , tech culture, but , um, we haven't shown you guys kind of what we do on the technical side. Like, you know, what we can , what we can do on the DFAR side on what we could do on the ethical hacking side. Yeah, exactly. Cloud cloud identity, you know, the stuff that we kind of do on a day to day basis, the stuff that we're when we're in the Fox or under the hood, so to speak. So we definitely want to tap into that and give you guys some of our experiences, because keep in mind, Christina and I worked in a very, very technical work study program where we were actually doing and replacing modems and motherboards and all these other things. So I've seen her get down and she seen me get down. That's how we met each other, you know? So we , we, we, those are our roots. So even though we've, you know, we've, we've been in the field for a little bit, we still have that techie heart and that hardcore love for the technology. So we can, we can get into the technical side a little bit. I feel there's some, we're going to have some episodes on that and we can have some guests to kind of elaborate on that. We also have some other people that want to come on the show and share their experiences and share their, you know, their, their, their viewpoint and what they're seeing their perspectives. So we have a lot coming. Um, we have, you know, we're definitely going to get into some of the things that we like to do as well, too . Uh, we have like, no, our take on things. Yeah. Just, just the way we've learned. So, and I think, you know, the future is bright. I think there is a , there are so many, so many places we can go and there's so many things that we could do on this platform. But one thing we would love and appreciate, and I want to , you know, give a call to action to , to all of our listeners out there is engage with us. Um, give us feedback, talk to us. I mean, we've been getting feedback on , on all social media platforms. And I know there's, some people reached out to Christina and told her some topics that they wanted to us to get into. We love that. We love that engagement. Uh , there's some people that reached out to me and told us what they feel we're doing here on this side and what they want to see us do as far as , um , you know, transitioning topics to , like I said, getting into some more technical stuff. Some people want us to get into more of the C level stuff and in branding and things of that nature. So we can, like I said, the more you guys engage with us, you you'll notice that we enjoy that. We love, we love hearing from you all out there. And , uh , we love, we love speaking and trying to connect in every which way. So , uh, so we're, we're available. You can follow us, you know, on all social media platforms, we're there, we're on Twitter, we're on Instagram and, you know, reach out and LinkedIn, reach out and give us a shout and tell us what's going on. Cause we'd love to hear from you. And we love to , uh, to keep this thing going and , and outside of just , uh , outside of just, you know, as you listening, but you engage with us, we love it. And I'm excited. I'm excited to have all these folks join us and engage in some great conversation.

Speaker 3:

Yeah . If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and cheer . You can find us on Apple podcast , Spotify podcast, among others on most on Twitter or Instagram colors .